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MDE

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Joined: 11/03/2017 05:19:12
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If a track is shown in MusicBrainz as being a partial recording of a work, then the MB Work Composition tags are not picked up. Also, while the MB Work Id is picked up, the MB Work Name is not. Is there a reason for this? It doesn't seem to make sense to me. The particular example I cam across was when the movement was split across two tracks on the album, hence the relationship in MB was marked as "partial".
I can share the example if required.
paultaylor

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Could you please provides the ids.

thanks Paul (Administrator)
MDE

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The release is b5028037-1e13-4ef9-84da-31469566f539 and the "offending" tracks are faf3c269-b52f-4efb-b853-d55cdd63df82 and ef31fefa-63c0-42a9-98d4-28115b8c6458
paultaylor

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Okay so when you have a recording - work relationship there are some additional attributes that can be checked cover/live/partial/instrumental and medley, and a recording can be linked to multiple works.

But it is not practical to capture everything within the fairly flat structure provided for the fields available for a given file. To my mind the main interest of Works is in relation to classical music to be able to link songs to movements and therefore then group by encompassing work. With that in mind we first just use recordings that have a work relationship with no attributes, then if none is found we allow the live attribute. We ignore cover, medley and instrumental because these are not the kind of works that people are interested in.

We ignore partial because it is not a one-one mapping between song and movement. Therefore the logic for trying to deriving movement names and movement nos falls apart a bit. So for that reason it doesn't seem like a good idea to add partial recordings



thanks Paul (Administrator)
MDE

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I sort of follow that argument, but I'm hampered by not really understanding where SongKong gets the Work and Movement from.
Nevertheless, clearly in this case the tracks are all part of the same work and there is no difference in the "part of" Work relationship from the other tracks, so I don't see why that relationship is dropped also (BTW I incorrectly said that work id was picked up - it isn't).
The net effect is to have two "orphan" tracks in the middle of a continuous work, which is clearly not the right answer.
I understand your comments about not being 1-1, but I thought SongKong looked to the Title to source Movement, but maybe I'm wrong. In the example given, the title does differentiate between the two "sub-movements". Whatever, I would have thought that the Musicbrainz_... tags would still be populated.
FWIW, Picard assigns the same work composition to both tracks.
paultaylor

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MDE wrote:

Nevertheless, clearly in this case the tracks are all part of the same work and there is no difference in the "part of" Work relationship from the other tracks, so I don't see why that relationship is dropped also (BTW I incorrectly said that work id was picked up - it isn't).
 

The reason is simply because that is a work - work relationship, since we dropped the recording - work relationship we dont get to the work and hence the work - work relationship.

MDE wrote:

The net effect is to have two "orphan" tracks in the middle of a continuous work, which is clearly not the right answer.
I understand your comments about not being 1-1, but I thought SongKong looked to the Title to source Movement, but maybe I'm wrong. In the example given, the title does differentiate between the two "sub-movements". Whatever, I would have thought that the Musicbrainz_... tags would still be populated.
 

Yes it looks at titles and at work relationships, bear in mind there are many releases on MusicBrainz that have recordings that do represent a movement of a work but dont have any work relationships added in MusicBrainz, that is one of the reasons why we consider both.

Has SongKong added values to the work and movement fields, if you want to get the best coverage of works/movements you should probably be looking at SongKongs work and movement fields rather than constraining yourself to only musicbrainz work/composition fields.

But having thought about this before I agree with you that there is not a good reason to not populate the MusicBrainz_Work_Composition_Id (and MusicBrainz_Work_Id) fields anyway for these partial recording of relationships (if there is recording of relationship)

Added https://jthink.atlassian.net/browse/SONGKONG-1185, this is another database change.

Do you agree about ignoring medley/cover/instrumental ?

thanks Paul (Administrator)
MDE

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I think I agree about medley/cover/instrumental although I haven't thought that deeply about it. In any case, these would be unusual for classical recordings. They seem somewhat analogous to arrangements, which are another difficult area. As you say, it is difficult to replicate a hierarchical and multidimensional structure with flat tags - you can only take it so far. That is why I like the new Muso feature which simply links directly to MusicBrainz if you want to dig deeper. I have some good test albums - like Saint-Saen's arrangements of Bach's arrangements of Vivaldi.
MDE

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BTW I don't know if movement and work were populated in the case of the two tracks mentioned. Those tags already had values before I ran SongKong and they weren't changed, so I think it unlikely SongKong gave them values. I'll blank them and run again.
MDE

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MDE wrote:
BTW I don't know if movement and work were populated in the case of the two tracks mentioned. Those tags already had values before I ran SongKong and they weren't changed, so I think it unlikely SongKong gave them values. I'll blank them and run again.  

No they are not populated (nor Part) for these two tracks only. All other tracks movt/work tags populated with text similar to Title.
paultaylor

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Partial Recordings now supported, database updated.

thanks Paul (Administrator)
MDE

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This one still doesn't seem to be working for me either. Any reason I wouldn't be picking up the updated database?
paultaylor

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Hmm. maybe caching I have just disabled caching could you retry please.

thanks Paul (Administrator)
MDE

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Fixed after I emptied the database and re-ran.
 
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