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Genre numbers replacing text in TCON  XML
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dkoh

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Paul, I don't know if you saw this or not, but I've been playing with this to the point where I think it's an issue:
http://www.jthink.net/jaikozforum/posts/list/6641.page

Is this how genres are supposed to be saved?

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paultaylor

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Sorry, I did glance at it I dont think I quite understand the issue though, can you restate it again for me please

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dkoh

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No matter what I change in Prefs, I still get some form of number replacement with "standard" genres.

When the Jaikoz field says this:
Pop/Rock;Death Metal;Heavy Metal;Black Metal;

TCON and players display this:
Pop/Rock(22)(137)(13

Even though it should be writing plain text, there is still some conversion happening.

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paultaylor

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Do you know what is actually stored in the file, i.e using a hex editor

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dkoh

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Yes, TCON has the numbers, looking at both hex and in notepad. If I reopen that same file in Jaikoz, it still shows the text value(s) (Death Metal).

As greengeek suggested, I turned iTunes compatibility on, and it reduced the quantity of the number conversions, but it still happens. If you look at the link in my first post, you can see my results. The code boxes are pasted straight from notepad.

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dkoh

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I should clarify something...

I don't put this whole string into the genre field:
Code:
Pop/Rock;Death Metal;Heavy Metal;Black Metal; 

I use the genre dialog and add them individually. The code box above shows what an XLS export shows.

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paultaylor

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Is this with ID3v23, try with it ID3v24

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dkoh

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It was 23, and yes 24 seems to be working. Thanks a million Paul. I'll do some batches and see how it turns out.

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paultaylor

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I've delved into my code, from the ID3 specification


TCON
The 'Content type', which previously was stored as a one byte numeric value only, is now a numeric string. You may use one or several of the types as ID3v1.1 did or, since the category list would be impossible to maintain with accurate and up to date categories, define your own.

References to the ID3v1 genres can be made by, as first byte, enter "(" followed by a number from the genres list (appendix A) and ended with a ")" character. This is optionally followed by a refinement, e.g. "(21)" or "(4)Eurodisco". Several references can be made in the same frame, e.g. "(51)(39)". If the refinement should begin with a "(" character it should be replaced with "((", e.g. "((I can figure out any genre)" or "(55)((I think...)". The following new content types is defined in ID3v2 and is implemented in the same way as the numerig content types, e.g. "(RX)".
RX Remix
CR Cover
 


So I have implemented additional genres as refinements for ID3v23, and if the genre is a standard genre (i.e < 125 and hence known by iTunes) then I use the number rather than the text because otherwise the spec is unclear how to separate multiple refinements.

i.e
Pop/Rock;Death Metal;Heavy Metal;Black Metal;

in ID3v23 with number refinements should be

Pop/Rock(22)(137)(138)

but without using numbers what would it be

Pop/Rock Death Metal Heavy Metal Black Metal ?

It's not clear

Whereas with ID3v24 multiple genres are separated with the null separator AND iTunes doesn't seem to understand numbers at all for ID3v24 so I always write text if have the Write iTunes Friendly Genres option enabled.

As I said the specification is unclear so if you think there is a bug here, or you need more options Im open to suggestions

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dkoh

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Well... I had a long winded response here and then realized that I turned iTunes Friendly off with 24... not that this one's any less windy :)

With Friendly on and 24, things seem to be saving properly now. I'm still playing with it and I'll let you know if it's still not working right.

To expand on your previous post; I realize that genres will probably never be sorted between devices/players, so I abandon the (n)=(genre) concept. All I'm after is the straight text to be written with no number replacement.

It looks like I can now batch-open and force save to replace the numbers with text.

paultaylor wrote:
So I have implemented additional genres as refinements for ID3v23, and if the genre is a standard genre (i.e < 125 and hence known by iTunes) then I use the number rather than the text because otherwise the spec is unclear how to separate multiple refinements 

Does this mean you're leaning towards more incorporation of the numbers? Do you know something about the numbers that I don't, cos to me they seem pretty useless. I don't think I have one player that supports them correctly.

I can't find it now, but somewhere I saw the list of null separators and how to use them. One of them was semicolon-delimited, which is what Jaikoz uses. How I have it set now (24 and Friendly), Winamp is seeing only the first one - which is good cos it means that it's separating them out. Before, if there was a number, it looks like it treated TCON as one long string. I'll play with Apple and XBMC tonight and see what it looks like.

Thx. 8)

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paultaylor

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dkoh wrote:
Does this mean you're leaning towards more incorporation of the numbers? Do you know something about the numbers that I don't, cos to me they seem pretty useless. I don't think I have one player that supports them correctly.
 

Players understand the numbers, it just seems your player doesn't understand refinements, after all the first value is displayed as number but not the others. I've no inclination to use numbers I just couldn't see how to do it for ID3v23 without using numbers, this was done some time ago so I can revisit.

I think maybe you are right about problems with more than one genre, so would you prefer it for ID3v23 if it was written so most players just saw the first genre, or saw a string containing multiple genres.


I can't find it now, but somewhere I saw the list of null separators and how to use them. One of them was semicolon-delimited, which is what Jaikoz uses.
 

No in V24 Jaikoz actually null separates values, this is the correct thing to do, but then it exports to spreadsheet it separates by ; instead as null seperator would be confusing (and only applies to Mp3s anyway not flac ecetera)


Winamp is seeing only the first one - which is good cos it means that it's separating them out.
 

It just ignores everything after the first null character.

Paul

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dkoh

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paultaylor wrote:

I think maybe you are right about problems with more than one genre, so would you prefer it for ID3v23 if it was written so most players just saw the first genre, or saw a string containing multiple genres. 

In my case, I don't really care what is displayed by the player (the first genre is fine). I'm after the functionality of searches. My main focus is XBMC. When you scan in a bunch of music, it builds a database with the ID3 info. This needs the genres to be separated to that I can pick them out individually.

So when ID3 contains this:
Code:
Pop/Rock;Heavy Metal;Grindcore;Speed Metal;Hardcore Punk

the way it was being displayed in XBMC with v23 was as one big string:
Code:
Pop/Rock(137)Grindcore,Speed Metal,Hardcore Punk

which is useless to me cos it only returns releases with that same exact string.

Now, playing with v24, it looks like it's splitting them up properly:
Code:
 Pop/Rock
 Heavy Metal
 Grindcore
 Speed Metal
 Hardcore Punk
 

Now I can select just one genre and it will return all relevant releases. It's similar to visiting a movie rental site, where you can pick "Comedy" and it brings back everything containing Comedy, even though it may also contain Romance, Drama, whatever.

IIRC, this was behaving properly in v23 as long as the number wasn't introduced. The spec isn't clear on how combine a text entry with number entries, but I'm assuming the absence of a null in "Pop/Rock(137)" is causing it to be treated as one object. Maybe it's acting like it's a refinement, even though it's really the next entry.


No in V24 Jaikoz actually null separates values, this is the correct thing to do, but then it exports to spreadsheet it separates by ; instead as null seperator would be confusing (and only applies to Mp3s anyway not flac ecetera) 

Right. I saw this afterward in the hex.

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paultaylor

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When they are split as in v24 can you search on the 2nd or third genre, or just the first.

Thinking that maybe I should change V23 genres to work like v24 genres even though not standard for V23 as it would make more sense, and I forgot that if you want access to all the genres you can still get them via the grouping fields whicj just stores all genres as a single semi-colon separated string.

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dkoh

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paultaylor wrote:

When they are split as in v24 can you search on the 2nd or third genre, or just the first. 

Yes, all of them are searchable. This works on the iPhone also; not using iTunes, just dumping MP3s over.

paultaylor wrote:

Thinking that maybe I should change V23 genres to work like v24 genres even though not standard for V23 as it would make more sense, and I forgot that if you want access to all the genres you can still get them via the grouping fields whicj just stores all genres as a single semi-colon separated string. 

Yeah, I played with that at the beginning of this whole genre expedition. I also tried a single semicolon-delimited string in the genre field, but neither worked how I wanted.

This is reason for the allmusic.com lists and wishlists that have come up from me, greengeek, and tincanfury. We want the search functionality with a predictable and consistent database. Does it make more sense now that you know whet we're doing?

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dkoh

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dkoh wrote:

paultaylor wrote:

When they are split as in v24 can you search on the 2nd or third genre, or just the first. 

Yes, all of them are searchable. This works on the iPhone also; not using iTunes, just dumping MP3s over. 


Correction. v24 isn't working on the iPhone. It's only showing the first genre. XBMC seems to be scanning them in fine, but now I'm having some script crashes.

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paultaylor

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Okay thanks for letting me know, I guess you understand that is a problem with iPhone not Jaikoz.

I assume the script crashes are unconnected with Jaikoz as well

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dkoh

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paultaylor wrote:
Okay thanks for letting me know, I guess you understand that is a problem with iPhone not Jaikoz.

I assume the script crashes are unconnected with Jaikoz as well 


Yeah, I understand on both, just a heads-up. I believe the XBMC crashes are caused by unknown characters/tags - it's come up before and it was working fine with v23. They set up the scanning for n00bs without Jaikoz . I've also noticed blank properties in Win7.

So... is there a 4.5.8 in the works, or should I convert everything back to 23 for usability for the time being? No rush, just wanna plan my workflow.

Thx again.

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paultaylor

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Hmm, I though v24 was better if it v24 doesn't work for you is there much point me changing v23 to work in the same way as v24 does ?

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dkoh

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You're right. Unfortunately, no multiples are coming up now on anything, with 23 or 24 using various settings. Maybe I shouldn't have done a Force Save with 24 and then revert back to 23.

I've been playing around and have some thoughts (not necessarily issue related, just throwing things at the wall). BTW, this is similar to what I'm looking at:

1. 24 is not compatible enough for me, I hope to stick with 23. Device support is spotty and even W7 won't display the tags. Everything below is playing with 23.

2. I've somewhat given up on sorting out the iPhone. Besides, it works well enough to get around without genre tags. It's also the wife's, she'll have to live with it.

3. It looks like ";" is the most commonly used delimiter. I've been playing with files and putting one long string in as one genre value works. "Test1;Test2;Test3" will be split up into 3 separate genres. Changing the delimiter isn't possible in Jaikoz, but can be accomplished using an Excel formula and copy/paste.

4. Adding Test1, Test2, and Test3 as separate entries will only return the first - both in display and in searches.

5. I can change the delimiter in XBMC, except null characters and XML files don't really work. Other posts state that \0 and 0x00 will not work, still reading.

6. If I can get a null separator to work in XBMC, I still have the issue of the (nnn) genres interfering, as there's no separator in the string "Rock(23)Metal" and will be returned as one value. Even if Jaikoz used semicolon delimiters this would still be an issue.

So that's where I'm at and I don't really know where to go from here. As things are now, the Excel formula is the answer. Removing the numbers altogether and using a null in XBMC would be an ideal solution.

I know I'm pushing the issue, but... any thoughts?

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dkoh

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Apparently the separators are being worked on in XBMC right now.

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=100983

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paultaylor

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Okay, it sounds to me that I should change V23 Genre to null separate values like V24, then if Xmbc is fixed so you can specify null as the separator that should work.

In the meantime, how about you take advantage of the fact that Jaikoz can also writes genres to the grouping field, comma seperated. Use Edit/Swap to swap the contents of genre and grouping fields, (or delete contents of genre field and use Append to Left) and just modify Xmbc to use the comma as the field separator


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dkoh

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Hey, sounds good.

Thx Paul.

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paultaylor

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Have you tried my grouping idea yet ?

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dkoh

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Not yet, I was out of town.

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I use my music with xbmc without any issues. All of mine is 2.4 with always write enabled and save in itunes friendly genres. I don't get any script errors. Though I do clear out any non standard english characters that are in my file names.

I converted all my 2.3 to 2.4 a few years back after most players had support for it. I don't think I have tested playing any of my music locally on the iphone or ipod. I have a streaming server setup, so I can access all of the music anywhere at anytime on either device. It works fine that way, but again the tags are being read from the music, saved to the server, then sent to the iphone, instead of having the iphone read it directly from the music.

@Dkoh,

Which skin are you using for xbmc? I noticed some skins are far more buggy than others. I am currently using the aeon mq3. Though very interested in the mq4 once it comes out. The screenshots on that look sweet!

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paultaylor

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In new release ID3v23 now writes multiple genres as a null separated list. so you just need to work out a way of reading setting the null as a seperator in Xmbc

http://www.jthink.net/jaikozforum/posts/list/6710.page

I did consider allowing you to specify a different separator for multiple values when saving files, but if I do that I also have to have an option for reading files with a different separator or reading different multiple seperators. Frankly it needs more consideration and could not be done for this release.

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dkoh

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Thx Paul. I've been encumbered by a bunch of life's little annoyances and haven't even been able to look at music for a while. I'll check out the new version, do some force saving, and see how it goes.

@greengeek
I'm using Aeon Nox SVN at the moment. I like MQ3 (and is 2nd in my book), but didn't finish getting it setup so I stuck with Nox for the time being. You know how skins go, 8 hours of fine-tuning and you don't want to do it again. MQ4 looks slick though.

And yeah, it's mainly the characters. I have too much to weed through to fix them manually. The main problem I have is with CDArt Manager. I've already dealt with him briefly for a solution, but me playing with v24 kinda screwed things up.

What do you mean by "streaming server"? How I'm setup now is just a bunch of SBM shares through multiple PCs and wireless for the living room. I don't dare point iTunes to my main drives, so it's drag-n-drop through iTunes for devices.

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@Paul
FWIW, I tried the Genre/Grouping format and it didn't work properly in XBMC. In fact, once I scanned them in I couldn't even find them through teh genre searches.

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dkoh wrote:

What do you mean by "streaming server"? How I'm setup now is just a bunch of SBM shares through multiple PCs and wireless for the living room. I don't dare point iTunes to my main drives, so it's drag-n-drop through iTunes for devices. 


I use either subsonic, http://www.subsonic.org with the isub iphone app or ampache, http://ampache.org/ to stream my music. I can then browse my full collection on my iphone, listen to songs or albums, or create playlists. Or I can use the web interface and do the same thing from any computer that is hooked up to the web.

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greengeek wrote:

I use either subsonic, http://www.subsonic.org with the isub iphone app or ampache, http://ampache.org/ to stream my music. I can then browse my full collection on my iphone, listen to songs or albums, or create playlists. Or I can use the web interface and do the same thing from any computer that is hooked up to the web.  


Ha! That's sweet. I'm checking them out now. Thx.

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