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Messages posted by: MDE  XML
Profile for MDE -> Messages posted by MDE [58] Go to Page: Previous  1, 2
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I should clarify the above. Only one performer tag (Performer [tenor vocals]) is missing - SongKOng has correctly picked up the other two and put them into Choir and Orchestra.
Really enjoying the ease of use of SongKong since I bought it. However, one or two curiosities where it doesn't seem to pick up all the MusicBrainz tags. For example, see the attached pic. This illustrates an album which has been tagged with SongKong and then checked against Picard. As can be seen, it is missing some tags - in particular three performer tags.
BTW the MB Work Id tag is not different - just that SongKong generated two records and Picard joins them with a semi-colon.
BTW2 I think the Picard approach of green for new and amber for changed is more intuitive than the other way round, which is used in the "view metadata as spreadsheet" (which I otherwise like!).
I see it wasn't possible to fix this in the latest release. Hopefully it will be resolved shortly. Nevertheless, I am very impressed with the classical music capability and will buy SongKong on the basis of the track record so far. I'll write up my findings and post them for the Muso users when I've thoroughly road-tested the full version. Thanks for all the help.
I don't think the arranger should get a track artist credit (in your scheme), as they are more like a composer. Of course, if they are performing as well (which is often the case when the arrangement is for a specific instrument), that's different, but then they should be listed as performer as well.
You can tweak Picard to be as lenient as you like.
The first time I ran SongKong on this file it showed 3, but then so did Jaikoz until it saved it. Now they both show 3 performer names, but only 1 performer with instrument.
Audio file is rather large. Attached are some screenshots. After saving in Jaikoz, as I said, the three performers were only saved as 1 (the first). There were still three performer names though. First pic shows Jaikoz after reloading the folder. 2nd pic shows what Picard gets - all three. 3rd screen shows the MB data. [EDIT - last 2 pics are reversed when displayed below]
Hi Paul. Still trying decide which of SongKong or Jaikoz is going to meet my needs best. There are pros and cons (and still the odd query outstanding in other posts). I'll see how the next SongKong release looks and whether some scripting is still required.
Then I'll get the full version, test and document a suggested process for Muso users, and check that with you before posting back in the Muso forum.
Mark
Am sending you an email with the zipped support files Report 20 is for this one https://musicbrainz.org/release/03096267-3b3d-4eed-9e7d-87ac3bc2305a. Picard matched 6 tracks (of 19) on first attempt. I then reduced the "matching thresholds" and it matched the lot. SongKong (& Jaikoz) did not match at all. Maybe something to do with matching thresholds?

I agree that 76% is OK, but a few more would be nice Using the MB id is a useful back-up, though.

BTW:
2,460 (76%) songs matched to MusicBrainz release
0 (0%) songs matched to MusicBrainz song only
430 (13%) songs matched to Acoustid song only
859 (26%) songs matched to Discogs
Only allow match if all songs in grouping match to one album:No
Only allow match if all tracks in album were matched:No
if you do then select the files and check that value withi iTunes itself I assume it does then show them grouped ? 

Yes
How are you putting Show Work Movement" = 1 into an mp4 

With dBpoweramp Edit Id-tag.

I discovered this by using dBpoweramp to look at the files after setting the "Use work & movement" flag in iTunes - it creates a tag "Show Work Movement". Other sources refer to this but name the tag incorrectly. So if you have dBpoweramp, you can easily check it yourself by inspecting the file after setting the flag. I then discovered that I could set the flag directly in dBpoweramp and it would work correctly on import. It even works if you create a SHOW WORK MOVEMENT tag in FLAC and use dBpoweramp to convert to m4a (NOT mp3).
If you still need a file, let me know (music files are rather large and I have a VERY slow broadband connection).
I've already tried that - it loses the structure if the tag is not there.
Files are m4a. I don't think it works for mp3.
try without using this tag for some other files 

Not sure what you meant by that?
Nope.
I ran a test of SongKong against a folder with 3228 songs. 2460 were matched to a MB release (76%) which I consider not bad considering my slightly oddball collection. There were 56 albums which were not matched to releases. 14 of these actually had MB releases, of which the album I quoted was one. I then checked another of the 14 - https://musicbrainz.org/release/06aa2341-81fb-4a8a-821f-6b6131b0d1e5. This only matched in Picard after changing the Album and Artist to match MB. Jaikoz could not match it even with the "correct" Album and Artist. However, your fall-back suggestion worked and is quite an easy solution*. I'll run SongKong against another one of the 14 and send the results.

*BTW for some reason the composer didn't get added to the album name, despite having this option checked in the preferences. I tried re-running remote correct, but still no composer in album.
Only Angela Hewitt is listed as PERFORMER in the tags. Myra Hess is actually listed as CONDUCTOR, which is I guess what causes her to appear as ARTIST. But you will see from the MB link that she is not conductor but "piano arranger" (which conjures up a slightly odd image in my mind).
Show Work Movement is not a field stored in the files themselves 

That's what I thought originally too, but try it and you will see - if you create a tag called "Show Work Movement" = 1 in the underlying files and import them, then hey presto, it works!
If a person is shown as an Arranger in the MB database, this is properly added to the ARRANGER tag by SongKong. However, if someone is described as Piano Arranger, SongKong seems to put them as an ARTIST, not ARRANGER. E.g. https://musicbrainz.org/track/37a2372c-4a5d-39d0-90ac-cc885d8ef605. (The style guidelines are for specific arrangement types to be given whenever possible)
At the moment, Jaikoz and SongKong use the "Is_Classical" tag to identify classical music, and the work and movement tags are populated where appropriate. However, no tag is provided to iTunes to identify this, so the user has to manually select tracks and tick "Use Work and Movement". Couldn't Jaikoz/Songkong instead just set "Show Work Movement" to 1 where appropriate and then no manual effort is required?
I have the following album - https://musicbrainz.org/release/e331893f-a5ff-4713-8c13-11ce193f7208 . The tags were a bit messy, but neither SongKong nor Jaikoz could match it to MusicBrainz (at any level). I changed the album tag to match exactly and still no luck. I tried Picard and it matched 100% with no issues. So I saved that and matched again in SongKong/Jaikoz using the MusicBrainz IDs to match - of course no problems now! Any reason for this? (BTW the album was added to MB two years ago - it shows as only updated recently because I added the cover art).
Just trialling Jaikoz, but I understand that limited saves are possible. I just ripped MB release id 6ecf3860-eb14-47ca-933a-7904a2ac47f4 (Mendelssohn Piano Trios / Sitkovetsky quartet), ran the Autocorrect and saved it. The details pane - classical tag - correctly shows three performers, as per the MB database, but only the first one got saved as a (FLAC) tag. Is this a constraint of the trial version, a bug, or what?
Thanks

paultaylor wrote:
Where MusicBrainz has a recording linked to a work that is a part of another work and so on then SongKong/Jaikoz does store this. The work directly linked to the recording is in a field called MusicBrainzWorkComposition, the very top most Work is stored in MusicBrainzWork and the levels in between are stored as MusicBrainzWorkLevelN where N can be from one to six.
 

I just ran Bach: Well-tempered Clavier (Angela Hewitt 1997edition) to test this. SongKong report provides all the levels, but since I can't save in the trial, I can't see the tags themselves. Jaikoz does not appear to find the various levels (didn't seem to find the work id).
Then tried Handel's Water Music (City of London Sinfonia / Hickox 1986). Similar result. Perhaps I have some Jaikoz settings wrong.
BTW the actual tags are
Top level: MUSICBRAINZ_WORK
Intermediate levels: MUSICBRAINZ_WORK_PARTOF_LEVELn where highest n is the highest intermediate level
Bottom level: MUSICBRAINZ_WORK_COMPOSITION
So it would take a script of some sort to construct a "GroupHeader:: SubHeader" format, with some assumptions about where to put the "::".
Looks promising, though.

paultaylor wrote:
I suppose I'm trying to work out what actual scripting you'll have to do - although Im sure there is some. 

Me too!


A few other things youmight not know about

SongKong/Jaikoz does store the Arranger(s) in an Arranger field

Where MusicBrainz has a recording linked to a work that is a part of another work and so on then SongKong/Jaikoz does store this. The work directly linked to the recording is in a field called MusicBrainzWorkComposition, the very top most Work is stored in MusicBrainzWork and the levels in between are stored as MusicBrainzWorkLevelN where N can be from one to six.
 

Thanks - I'm still learning!
Thanks again Paul. Re exporting and editing. That is a fall-back, yes, but frankly I have mp3tag if I want to do stuff like that.
Re SongKong - I am seriously impressed with how it handles classical music tagging - very much along the lines that I have been doing with mp3tag for years. But much simpler. However, there a few missing bits - e.g. Arrangers - and also it doesn't create group sub-headers for multi-level works. That, and the fact that there are inevitable tagging gaps and errors in the source metadata, mean that "local correction" is sometimes needed to supplement the external sources. It is for that reason that I turned to Jaikoz rather than SongKong as I hoped it might combine the best of both worlds. However, as you point out, the classical music tagging is slightly less advanced. I'll continue to look at both of them as there are a number of ways of tackling the problem. At the moment, however, it looks like I would need to supplement either of them with mp3tag, which adds complexity.
Mark
See http://musoware.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=379 to see what I am trying to achieve. Picard does this (mostly) adequately for metadata imported from MusicBrainz (see https://picard.musicbrainz.org/docs/scripting/ for the documentation) but does not have the ability to amend the tags in stored files via scripts (only direct editing of each tag is possible).
What I am suggesting is a similar facility in Jaikoz, so that a script could be written for optional execution when importing from MusicBrainz (say a checkbox and a text box as an advanced Remote Correct option). See Options->Options->Scripting in Picard for an example of how this would look. A similar facility could also be provided in Local Correct as a separate action and this would be a significant advantage over Picard. The scripts would not necessarily be identical.
Thanks Paul. I am documenting this fully in the Muso forum and will post a link when it is done.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Paul. I have come to the conclusion that, to meet my requirements, Jaikoz would need to include a scripting capability. What I have in mind is something pretty identical to the Picard tagger script. This could be included as an option on "Remote Correct" (at least for MusicBrainz), but also (and as an important enhancement over Picard) as an option in "Local Correct".
I'll keep an eye open for any such developments.
Mark
Thanks for the reply Paul. Regarding rationalising my tags - that is definitely on my todo list. Part of the reason for looking at Jaikoz is to see whether I can simplify the process set out in my website. Things have moved on a bit since I first developed it.
The main "missing" tag is Instrument. This is not in the MusicBrainz tag list as it is regarded as an attribute of the Performer relationship. I use it in two ways:
1. As a sub-genre of Concerto and Instrumental.
2. To add to the Artist tag so that it is displayed in a player.
There may be another way of achieving the same effect. I'll look into it. At the moment I use the performer tag just for supporting artists (with their instruments / voices in brackets). I could duplicate the artist there, but of course most players don't show this. Muso handles it all very well, but that's only on the desktop.
Regarding Work etc. I'll look into that further. Does Jaikoz split the title even if there is no MusicBrainz match - I would have thought the action would need to be in "Local Correct"? I see there is an option to remove the work from the title in "Remote Correct", but I don't like that as most players won't then show the work (iTunes now being ahead of the game now on this one). The MusicBrainz style guideline is Title=Work: Movement.
Hi. I'm evaluating Jaikoz and am really impressed with the functionality and user interface. However, I have a couple of (slightly related issues).
By way of background, most of my music is Classical and is stored as FLAC with extensive (but not always correct or complete) tagging. I use Muso for library management (much the best in my view) and Logitech Music Server (Squeezebox) for playing. I'm looking for ways to make my existing scheme (www.music.highmossergate.co.uk) easier and quicker.
1. To optimize the metadata, I use a number of custom tags. I see Jaikoz has a custom tag capability, but it seems to just map onto "fixed" internally-specified custom tags. Is there any way I can get it to read and edit my custom FLAC tags (which have meaningful names, not just Custom_1 etc).
2. Without going the full scripting route (e.g. mp3tag) is some slightly more advanced editing possible - e.g. taking a title which is in the format "Work: Movement" (the MusicBrainz standard) and creating the Work, Part and Movement tags by splitting at the colon?
Is there a way of doing either of these currently, a work-round, or would it need new features?
Many thanks
 
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