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Messages posted by: MDE  XML
Profile for MDE -> Messages posted by MDE [58] Go to Page: 1, 2 Next 
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Just trying to clarify what is put in these tags. As I understand it, they are only populated if the "song" is part of a multi-movement work (presumably as indicated by MusicBrainz). However, they are not populated from the MB database itself (the MUSICBRAINZ_WORK_... tags are used for that) but rather from the Title tag. It seems that "Movement" is everything after the last colon-space (minus the number) and that "Work" is everything before the first colon-space. This mostly works fine if the MB Title is in the format "Work: Movement". Some titles are not exactly in that format, however (e.g. this one - https://musicbrainz.org/recording/52a80898-80ae-4a11-a8dc-3afb7477a438 in my collection). An extra colon appears to result in the middle section of text ("Scherzo") being lost. I assume that is unavoidable and is ideally fixed by editing the MB data (so that it doesn't cause problems for others, either).
Another badly-edited album in MB is https://musicbrainz.org/release/55e10969-b484-424a-bb2a-b6645568d9dc, which has a Title in the format "Composer: Work-composition". SongKong seems to discard the Composer part of the title, leaving it with no colons and therefore no ability to make a work: movement split, despite there being multi-levels in MB. Is that correct?
Knowing how SongKong operates here would be especially useful so that I can make my MB edits have the intended effect.
Tested & seems OK. I'll assume that the missing data for https://musicbrainz.org/release/d40d3284-996d-4b29-a472-55ed7a6c5c3e is a bit of a one-off and resume ripping now.
That looks OK now, thanks.
And this one too: https://musicbrainz.org/release/d40d3284-996d-4b29-a472-55ed7a6c5c3e
No MUSICBRAINZ_WORK.. tags at all. The first track is a bit odd (but still should get a MUSIC_BRAINZ_WORK_COMPOSITION I think), while the others look pretty regular to me.
I'll stop ripping for a bit until we get to the bottom of this!
Re the work issue, this one: https://musicbrainz.org/release/ca55b3d0-5a2a-4f1b-88a8-ae124f28258b also had missing MUSICBRAINZ_WORK... tags for tracks 4 - 14. Again, the problem seems to be that the higher-level work "is based on" another work. This will frequently be the case for classical music, where composers often create orchestral suites based on larger works. The MB style guideline is (quite correctly) to treat the suite as a separate work. I agree that SongKong should ignore the "is based on" relationship. (Muso users can easily see the MB page and navigate wherever they wish!)
Fixed after emptying the database.
However, there is another little wrinkle (boy, this stuff is complicated!). For tracks 8, 9 and 17, Angela Hewitt is the "piano arranger" as well as the performer (piano) (see https://musicbrainz.org/release/40bc2a67-0a31-47da-a5dc-e53ab6c13399). I think she should therefore be added as Arranger as well as Performer.
Fixed after I emptied the database and re-ran.
That's fixed the arranger issue. I assume the work issue will take a little longer.
This one still doesn't seem to be working for me either. Any reason I wouldn't be picking up the updated database?
Just tested this with the same album as previously - SK is still adding piano arranger to Conductor and Artist.
if you remove the metadata and retry the issue should not recoccur. 

Did that and it re-added arranger for every track
Sorry to keep raising questions like this, but I did say I'd road-test the classical functionality!
Just ripped https://musicbrainz.org/release/42bb2ee7-2102-3db9-9f0b-1bb43055683f
Mostly it's fine, but SongKong has not picked up the MusicBrainz_Work and Work_composition for the Variations on a Theme of Paganini. The MB page seems to indicate they are all present and correct (not partial etc.). Any ideas?
Also Rachmaninov is applied to the Arranger tag by SK, as well as to composer. This is arguably correct for Piano Concerto No.1 where MB lists him as composer and "additional composer" (reworked it later) but for all the other pieces, MB does not show an arranger - just Rachmaninov as composer. There is no Discogs data to confuse things and it is clear that SK added Arranger as a new tag, so I am puzzled.
(Re scripting proposal) That looks broadly sensible. OK, it means using js rather than foobar/mp3tag/picard-style scripting, but that is consistent with the filenaming approach. I assume that the full js language capability is available (including, in particular, RegExp).
Not quite how the three components interact. E.g. what happens if you want to rename a field and use scripting: which happens first - do you rename and use the script on the new field or vice-versa? No doubt this and other issues will be flushed out during development.
Happy to beta-test when required.
Is_classical was set. I suspect that Work and Movement were not set as there was no colon in the title. My Mp3tag script did pick up the MusicBrainz tags and create the work and movement for Muso - but just for those two tracks of course.
Now I know how Work and Movement are derived, I won't bother adding "split title" logic in my Mp3tag script unless I come up with an idea about how to handle commas - they are a pain - in which case I'll share it. I do think MB could tighten up the style guidelines around punctuation.
I just added this one https://musicbrainz.org/release/55e10969-b484-424a-bb2a-b6645568d9dc
MB only had two tracks matched to work_compositions so I linked all the others. SongKong did not give any work or movement tags for any of the tracks, except for the MUSICBRAINZ_WORK... tags for the two tracks already linked. Just trying to understand why this is the case. Does it require the existence af the MB tags to trigger the work/movement tagging? Why were the two linked tracks not tagged with work & movement - because they were isolated tracks?
Now I have added all the links, I assume all the tags will get added after I run SongKong again, once Albunack has been updated - what is the frequency of this?
In the "classical" tab there are two sets of options to not modify fields. On scrolling down the field list, unfortunately some of the field names are too long and too similar to be able to differentiate them. Stretching the dialog box does not stretch the list box and I can't find a way of seeing what they are.
Updated http://musoware.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=387&p=2905#p2905.
Re the comments there on SonKong and scripting, maybe there would need to be separate scripts for "All" and "Classical" formatting.

MDE wrote:
BTW I don't know if movement and work were populated in the case of the two tracks mentioned. Those tags already had values before I ran SongKong and they weren't changed, so I think it unlikely SongKong gave them values. I'll blank them and run again.  

No they are not populated (nor Part) for these two tracks only. All other tracks movt/work tags populated with text similar to Title.
Muso site back up now. You may need to post in the introductions forum.
Looks like the musoware site went down. Still down now.
Re 1. The main choices are what to put in Artist and to not overwrite AlbumArtist. Re 2. Your understanding is correct, but Arranger will not get displayed unless it is added to the composer field (but it would be available for use in a hierarchical search as a custom field). Semi-colons etc could be avoided by creating new tags in Mp3tag, if desired, but originally I was trying to make it work without scripts. Re 3. It is creating up to three levels of work, as far as possible without repeating the higher levels, combining the top two (if there are three) with a double colon. If the MB_ tags are missing it just uses Work and Movement. If Movement is different from the bottom level (case-independently) it adds it in {}. The fancy regexp is to ignore punctuation and spaces when eliminating the "higher level" work text from the lower levels - MusicBrainz data is frequently inconsistent in this regard.
It's work in progress - I'll add a bit more to the Muso post once the site is back up.
BTW I don't know if movement and work were populated in the case of the two tracks mentioned. Those tags already had values before I ran SongKong and they weren't changed, so I think it unlikely SongKong gave them values. I'll blank them and run again.
I think I agree about medley/cover/instrumental although I haven't thought that deeply about it. In any case, these would be unusual for classical recordings. They seem somewhat analogous to arrangements, which are another difficult area. As you say, it is difficult to replicate a hierarchical and multidimensional structure with flat tags - you can only take it so far. That is why I like the new Muso feature which simply links directly to MusicBrainz if you want to dig deeper. I have some good test albums - like Saint-Saen's arrangements of Bach's arrangements of Vivaldi.
I sort of follow that argument, but I'm hampered by not really understanding where SongKong gets the Work and Movement from.
Nevertheless, clearly in this case the tracks are all part of the same work and there is no difference in the "part of" Work relationship from the other tracks, so I don't see why that relationship is dropped also (BTW I incorrectly said that work id was picked up - it isn't).
The net effect is to have two "orphan" tracks in the middle of a continuous work, which is clearly not the right answer.
I understand your comments about not being 1-1, but I thought SongKong looked to the Title to source Movement, but maybe I'm wrong. In the example given, the title does differentiate between the two "sub-movements". Whatever, I would have thought that the Musicbrainz_... tags would still be populated.
FWIW, Picard assigns the same work composition to both tracks.
Have gone for SongKong as that is most advanced for classical music. However similar comments apply to both apps.
See http://musoware.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=387&p=2903#p2903 for my first take on Muso-SongKong-MusicBrainz integration.
At the moment an Mp3tag action is required to join the dots. A scripting capability in SongKong/Jaikoz would eliminate this and allow users to implement different variations (and link to different library managers / players)
The release is b5028037-1e13-4ef9-84da-31469566f539 and the "offending" tracks are faf3c269-b52f-4efb-b853-d55cdd63df82 and ef31fefa-63c0-42a9-98d4-28115b8c6458
There is an option to add the composer name at the start of the (classical) album. This is added as "Composer name:Album Name" - i.e. no space after the colon, which looks a bit odd. Also, if there is more than one (max 2?) composer then they are separated by a semi-colon, again with no space after.
Minor point, but it does make the display a bit odd.
If a track is shown in MusicBrainz as being a partial recording of a work, then the MB Work Composition tags are not picked up. Also, while the MB Work Id is picked up, the MB Work Name is not. Is there a reason for this? It doesn't seem to make sense to me. The particular example I cam across was when the movement was split across two tracks on the album, hence the relationship in MB was marked as "partial".
I can share the example if required.
OK. I'll check again when it's done.
Re the more general point - I agree it needs a bit of thought rather than diving in. The obvious parallel is Performer, which as you say, requires two fields, Performer and Performer_name.
Just tested this again. The specific "piano arranger" is no longer being added as Artist. However, it is being shown as "Conductor" not "Arranger".
Also, I cannot see the Arranger field anywhere in the spreadsheet view.

BTW, on a broader note, is there a better way of tagging "specific" arranger roles, much like with performers? E.g. To store the name with the specific type in brackets such as "Myra Hess (piano arr.)". I note that the "Orchestrator" type gets saved in the Arranger tag as well, so this could be shown as, say, "Maurice Ravel (Orch.)". Just a thought.
I ran SongKong on this album again and this time it picked up the tag OK - so it seems to be an intermittent issue.
Profile for MDE -> Messages posted by MDE [58] Go to Page: 1, 2 Next 
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